Consideration of reports, comments and information submitted by States parties under article 9 of the Convention (continued)
Twelfth periodic report of Poland (continued)
Submission of reports by States parties under article 9, paragraph 1, of the Convention (continued)
CONSIDERATION OF REPORTS, COMMENTS AND INFORMATION SUBMITTED BY STATES PARTIES UNDER ARTICLE 9 OF THE CONVENTION (agenda item 4) (continued)
Twelfth periodic report of Poland (CERD/C/226/Add.2) (continued)
1. Mr. KEDZIA (Poland) expressed gratitude to the Committee, whose comments would provide valuable guidelines for the Polish Government in the preparation of its reports. He would do his best to reply to the questions raised and would later furnish any additional information requested.
2. Regarding Mr. Garvalov's comment on the statement, that "racial discrimination does not exist in Poland" (para. 11), he said that the author of the report had meant that both official policy and the legislation were aimed at combating discrimination. Unfortunately, racial discrimination and intolerance had not been entirely eliminated from the behaviour of certain marginal groups in Poland.
3. Mr. Wolfrum had expressed some criticism of a passage from paragraph 2 of the report, which stated that "the definition of racial discrimination as specified in article 1 of the Convention has not been incorporated into the domestic legal system". The author of the report had meant to say that the definition had not been incorporated into the national legal system word for word. Article 1 of the Convention had a definite influence on the perception of racial discrimination in Poland. International human rights standards, including those laid down in the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, had provided a frame of reference for those who had acted in favour of democratic change in the recent past.
4. Mr. de Gouttes and Mr. Rechetov had noted, in paragraph 7 of the report, that racial discrimination was classified as an offence against mankind. He drew the attention of the members of the Committee to chapter 16 of the draft Penal Code, entitled "Crimes against peace and mankind and war crimes", which also covered offences of a racial nature. The lawmakers had wanted to emphasize the seriousness of such offences and the need to combat them. However, the legislation in question was only a bill and had not yet been submitted to the Diet.
5. With regard to the status of the Convention in respect of internal law, Mr. Wolfrum and Mr. Garvalov had expressed disappointment that the Convention was not directly applicable in Poland under the Constitution. That was certainly unfortunate, but he noted that, according to the 1952 Constitution, the provisions of conventions and other international instruments ratified by Poland were in fact not incorporated into the national legal system by the sole act of ratification (para. 3). However, according to a 1989 constitutional amendment and the Supreme Court's interpretation of that text in June 1992, the President was empowered to ratify international treaties and the Diet's consent was needed only if those instruments required laws to be amended or imposed financial obligations on the country. As soon as they were ratified, those laws were published in the Journal of Laws. They then became an integral part of internal law and were therefore binding. The International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination and the other international human rights instruments, including the two Covenants, had not been ratified under those new legal provisions and could therefore not be considered as forming an integral part of the national legal system. But that in no way lessened the importance of those instruments, to which the Constitutional Court, the Administrative Court and the Ombudsman often referred.
6. Concerning the extensive restructuring of the administration of justice, on which Mr. Wolfrum and Mr. Diaconu had requested additional information, he noted that new bodies for protection had been established in the 1980s: the Supreme Administrative Court in 1980; the Constitutional Court in 1986; and the Commissioner for Civil Rights - the equivalent of the Ombudsman - in 1987. It should be noted that the Ombudsman also dealt with non-citizens living under Polish jurisdiction. More recently, the Supreme Administrative Court had been empowered to examine the lawfulness of most administrative decisions; the independence of the judiciary had been ensured through new guarantees (irremovability and autonomy of judges); and the Minister of Justice now had the functions of Procurator-General, which had previously been performed by a public prosecutor's department closely linked to the Ministry of the Interior.
7. Replying to a question asked by Mr. de Gouttes, Mr. Garvalov, Mr. Rechetov and Mr. Wolfrum about national and ethnic minorities in the demographic composition of Poland, he said that, according to estimates by the Ministry of Culture, which was in charge of coordinating policy on minorities, the country had 300,000 Ukrainians; 200,000-250,000 Byelorussians; 200,000-500,000 Germans (the significant difference in those estimates was the result of disparities between data sources and methods of calculation); 20,000-25,000 Lithuanians; 15,000 Jews; 15,000 Greeks and Macedonians; and 3,000 Russians, Tatars, Karaites, Armenians and Czechs. Ethnic minorities therefore represented approximately 1,100,000 inhabitants out of a total population of 40 million Poles.
8. The difficulty in making demographic estimates was that the Communist regime had attempted for decades to eliminate the minority problem administratively by invoking the moral and political identity of the nation. In addition, some people were afraid that they would attract problems if they said that they belonged to a particular group. For the time being, priority was being given to preparing a system for the legal protection of minorities, independently of the potential number of individuals composing them. In that connection and in reply to a question by Mr. de Gouttes and Mr. Wolfrum, he said that there were two opposing theories, one in favour of the adoption of a special status for the protection of minorities and the other against it. The minorities themselves were divided on that question. There were also provisions on the protection of minorities in the text of the new Constitution and Poland had recently concluded treaties and bilateral good neighbour agreements - in particular with Poland, the Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania -that contained detailed provisions on the protection of minorities.
9. Referring to Mr. Wolfrum's question on minorities' participation in representative bodies at the local and national levels, he said that local administration in Poland was based on the principle of autonomy and that the representatives of minorities were members of the local diets. Minorities were also represented in both chambers of the Diet. To facilitate access to the Diet, under a 1991 electoral law, minority candidates proposed by the electoral boards were registered according to less stringent criteria than the others.
10. In reply to a question raised by Mr. Banton, Mr. de Gouttes and Mr. Wolfrum, he said that the Committee on National and Ethnic Minorities of the Sejm (lower chamber of the Diet) had been established immediately after the political changes in 1989. It was the successor of the Commission on Minority Issues, an unofficial body of the Solidarity political opposition movement. That standing parliamentary committee dealt with all questions relating to the protection of minorities, in particular the question of the draft statute on the protection of minorities.
11. Replying to a question by Mr. Banton, he said that the department of the Ministry of Culture in charge of national minorities coordinated activities relating to minorities at the Government level. Among other duties, it dealt with official policy on minorities, which was based on the principles of the protection of minorities, liberties, affirmative action and the autonomy of minority organizations, movements and associations.
12. With regard to access by minorities to education, a question raised by Mr. Diaconu, Mr. Rechetov, Mr. Song and Mr. Wolfrum, he said that there were no restrictions on instruction in minority languages, which depended on need and the available material resources. For example, since 1 September 1992, German had been taught as the first language in seven schools and as a foreign language in 170 schools in areas inhabited by the German minority; three primary schools and three general secondary schools taught Ukrainian; and Byelorussian was taught in 48 primary schools and 2 secondary schools.
13. Emigration, about which Mr. Wolfrum had asked, primarily concerned nationals of German origin and Gypsies. However, he did not have any specific data on the subject.
14. Replying to another question by Mr. de Gouttes, he said that there were 10,000-15,000 Gypsies living in Poland. A magazine published in the Gypsy language had been launched with State aid. Special classes were also organized for the numerous Gypsy children who did not attend school. The Gypsy language was not taught in the schools, for it did not appear to be necessary given that community's lifestyle. On another matter, the Mlawa incident, in which several inhabitants of that community had attacked Gypsies, had occurred in March 1992 following a traffic accident caused by a Gypsy driver. Those events had been condemned by public opinion, the authorities and the press.
15. Turning to the convictions handed down in cases involving racial discrimination, about which Mr. Wolfrum and Mr. Rechetov had requested further information, he referred to four cases: on 26 May 1985, the court at Cracow had handed down a suspended sentence of 18 months in prison for blows and insults to a Nigerian because of his race, in conformity with article 274, paragraphs 1 and 2, of the Penal Code; on 13 August 1986, the court at Lublin had handed down a suspended sentence of 12 months in prison for insults to a group of children from the German Democratic Republic because of their German nationality, in conformity with article 271, paragraph 1, of the Penal Code; on 3 October 1987, the court at Cracow had handed down a suspended sentence of 10 months in prison for insults to Palestinians and Iraqis because of their race, in conformity with article 274, paragraph 1, of the Penal Code; and on 20 August 1987, the court at Bytom had handed down a sentence of 18 months of limitation of liberty for insults to two persons because of their Polish nationality, in conformity with article 274, paragraph 1, of the Penal Code. "Limitation of liberty" meant that a person had to report once a week to a police station, request authorization to change domicile and perform work of public importance.
16. Concerning regulations for religious freedom, about which Mr. Wolfrum and Mr. Diaconu had raised questions, he explained that, in June 1989, a law on religious freedom and laws on the status of the Catholic and Orthodox churches had been adopted. A law on the status of Protestant churches was being prepared. Religious instruction had been introduced into school curricula under article 12 of the Education Act of 1991. At the primary school level, parents decided whether or not their children should be given religious instruction; at the secondary level, the decision was taken jointly by parents and children. Parents and children were also entitled not to take advantage of those opportunities; for example, children could take religion courses organized in their religious communities outside the educational system. The Constitutional Court had confirmed the legality of the regulations adopted.
17. With regard to the law on abortion, he said that the bill on the protection of life after conception, which had been aimed at completely prohibiting abortion except in cases where the life of the mother was directly threatened, had given rise to violent political controversy. Ultimately, a compromise had been reached and a law on the protection of the foetus and sexual education had been adopted in early 1993. It permitted abortions in cases where the life or health of the mother was endangered and in cases of rape and incest. Abortion for so-called social reasons was prohibited. At first glance, the law was not at variance with the protection of any particular national, ethnic or religious minority, but there would have to be some court decisions before a more thorough assessment could be made.
18. In reply to Mr. Wolfrum, Mr. de Gouttes and Mr. Garvalov concerning the measures taken against organizations and parties having racial objectives, he explained that, after decades of communist rule, Poland was still at the early stages in the establishment of a party system. The general stance adopted was to limit State interference in that process as much as possible. The need for freedom for political parties was confirmed by the fact that there were now more than 180 active parties in Poland. However, they were mostly very small parties with no political influence. That was the group to which the Polish National Party, led by Mr. Tejkowski, belonged. Because of Mr. Tejkowski's statements and other activities, criminal proceedings had been brought against him, but they had not yet been concluded. The 1990 Political Parties Act allowed the Constitutional Court to declare a political party unconstitutional. If a political party had the goal of changing the constitutional order by force, it could be outlawed. The Associations Act provided for similar restrictions for organizations other than political parties. The State authorities also had legal means at their disposal to combat organizations and political parties which violated the prohibition against racial or national hatred and fostered racial discrimination. Obviously, restrictions on the freedom of political parties and other associations could be imposed only in accordance with a lawful procedure in keeping with other elements in the legislation. The State should be cautious in such matters.
19. Replying to a question by Mr. Song on the risks of racial discrimination resulting from migrations, he said that Poland had been receiving a large number of foreigners for some time. Although it was generally considered to be a transit country, that did create problems, particularly for persons who crossed Polish territory seeking asylum in Western European countries. With the exception of isolated acts, however, there were no negative or discriminatory attitudes towards foreigners in Poland. Poland also played an active role in international efforts to assist refugees from the former Yugoslavia, in particular by receiving 1,000 children. He added for Mr. Garvalov's benefit that, to his knowledge, there had been no problems of discrimination against Vietnamese in Poland; there were no Vietnamese immigrant workers in the country.
20. Mr. RECHETOV thanked the representative of Poland for his information, but said he had the impression that the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination did not have as high a status in Poland as other human rights instruments.
21. He would like the next report to contain more detailed information on the teaching of languages other than Polish. The Polish representative had spoken of doubts as to the need to study the Romany language. It was possible that members of that ethnic community themselves had doubts and thought more in terms of assimilation, but any complacency about the linguistic status quo should be avoided.
22. He understood that foreigners transiting through Poland might create some problems and cause some negative feelings among the local population. He pointed out, however, that the word "refugee" should not be used when speaking of such persons, for the word had a different meaning in international law; it was more appropriate to speak of migratory phenomena.
23. He thanked the representative of Poland for providing specific information on the convictions for racial discrimination handed down under article 274 of the Penal Code. Regarding the incidents involving Gypsies, it was obvious that they had racist connotations. The initial statement by the representative of Poland that racial discrimination had not been completely eliminated in his country might not have been an accurate reflection of a situation that was in fact a bit more serious.
24. Mr. WOLFRUM said that the information just provided by the representative of Poland rounded out that country's periodic report; it was to be hoped that it would be incorporated into the next report. Regarding minorities, he noted that, according to the Committee's General Recommendations, members of such groups must identify themselves as belonging to minority groups. He agreed with Mr. Rechetov that there should be more information on the teaching of languages other than Polish in the educational system. By way of comparison, the Gypsy language was taught in Hungary and in Finland. The information supplied should also relate to higher education. Lastly, he would like to have further information on other subjects, such as the status of the Convention, the institution of the Ombudsman, etc.
25. Mr. GARVALOV thanked the representative of Poland for his reply to the question he had asked about the Vietnamese. He would like to know whether legislation allowed political parties with ethnic aims. They were legal in some countries and illegal in others. In Bulgaria, for example, there was an ethnically-based political party that was represented in the Parliament and another had just been established, but was not yet registered. He agreed with Mr. Rechetov that the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination had inferior status, since it could not be invoked directly before the courts as other instruments could. That situation should be corrected in the future.
26. Mr. de GOUTTES noted that Poland had acceded to the European Convention on Human Rights and had made the declaration under that instrument concerning petitions from individuals, and that could be interpreted as a sign that the democratic system was firmly in place in Poland. However, it had not made the declaration provided for in article 14 of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination. It would be faulty reasoning to think that it was not necessary to do so because the declaration provided for in the European Convention was sufficient.
27. Mr. DIACONU said that he also wished to thank the representative of Poland for his replies and that the dialogue that had just taken place had been quite useful, for both the Committee and the delegation. Account should be taken of Poland's particular historical, geographical and political features and the fact that the country was going through a period of transition. He hoped that the comments of the members of the Committee would be taken into consideration by the Polish authorities and that the next report, to be submitted in two years, would contain a new description of an evolving situation.
28. The CHAIRMAN invited the Polish delegation to reply to the last questions raised.
29. Mr. KEDZIA (Poland), replying to the question on the Romany language, said that the Romish population in his country was a nomadic population, whose children had difficulties attending school. The authorities were in a dilemma because they did not wish to interfere with that lifestyle. However, they were developing special courses in that language for the regular schools. Mr. Wolfrum had made a comparison with Hungary, but the Gypsy population in Hungary was much larger and concentrated in one region, and that solved the school problem.
30. Replying to a question by Mr. Wolfrum, he said that the teaching of foreign languages had been neglected in the last 10 years and that Poland was considerably behind other countries in that field. That was why new schools had been established for training language teachers. He noted that the minority languages were also taught at university.
31. The law did not prohibit the formation of political parties on ethnic grounds. It simply said nothing on the subject.
32. The international treaties ratified by Poland, in particular the Convention, would be directly applicable under the new Constitution and would have higher authority than the laws adopted by the Diet.
33. However, incorporating instruments into domestic law was not sufficient. Judges, lawyers, the public and everyone involved in the administration of justice had to be educated in order for direct applicability to become a reality. That was why the Polish authorities had set up a training programme for judges in human rights legislation.
34. Replying to a question by Mr. de Gouttes, he said that generally speaking the Polish authorities recognized the right of individuals to go before international bodies to avail themselves of their rights. In 1991, Poland had ratified the Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and it had also recognized the competence of the European Court of Human Rights to consider petitions from individuals. It was for technical reasons only that Poland had not yet made the declaration provided for in article 14, paragraph 1, of the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination.
35. In conclusion, he said that the observations and recommendations of the members of the Committee would be very useful to the Polish authorities.
36. The CHAIRMAN thanked the Polish delegation for its spirit of cooperation.
37. The Polish delegation withdrew.
SUBMISSION OF REPORTS BY STATES PARTIES UNDER ARTICLE 9, PARAGRAPH 1, OF THE CONVENTION (agenda item 3) (continued)
Consideration of the draft general recommendation on article 4 of the Convention submitted by Mr. Banton and Mr. Wolfrum
38. The CHAIRMAN said that the draft general recommendation had had to be adopted provisionally at the preceding meeting because there had been no quorum. Since there was a quorum now, he would take it that, if he heard no objection, the Committee adopted the draft general recommendation in final form.*
39. It was so decided.
* The final version of the draft general recommendation will appear in the Committee's report on the work of its forty-second session.
Consideration of the draft concluding observations on the report submitted by Algeria
40. Mr. DIACONU read out the draft concluding observations:
4. Above all, the Committee believes that the next report should clarify the situation of the population of Berber origin, i.e. its position in Algerian society with regard to its identity, language, culture and participation in public life."
41. Mr. WOLFRUM said that the draft concluding observations should be fleshed out. They seemed to be lacking in substance, especially by comparison with the conclusions formulated by the Human Rights Committee after its consideration of the report of Algeria.
42. Mrs. SADIQ ALI noted that the issue of Black Algerians had been mentioned during the discussion and should therefore be included in the draft concluding observations.
43. Mr. FERRERO COSTA said that several members of the Committee were having to give their opinion on draft concluding observation on a report whose discussion they had not been able to take part in because they had been notified only 10 days in advance that the Committee would be holding a session in March. He would therefore like Mr. Wolfrum to state exactly what substantive differences there were between the Committee's concluding observations and those of the Human Rights Committee.
44. Mr. YUTZIS said he shared Mr. Ferrero Costa's views and proposed that a small working group should be requested to flesh out the draft concluding observations to make them reflect the situation in Algeria more accurately.
45. Mr. LAMPTEY said that he was surprised that the Committee's concluding observations were being compared with those of the Human Rights Committee in that the latter had considered a completely different report from the one currently under review. He endorsed Mrs. Sadiq Ali's proposal that the question of Black Algerians should be mentioned in the concluding observations.
46. Mr. GARVALOV said he believed that the Committee should make an effort to harmonize the wording it used in its draft concluding observations. In the fourth line of paragraph 3, the term "ethnic minorities" should be used rather than the term "ethnic communities". An important question of principle was involved. The Committee should choose its terms according to its own criteria and not necessarily repeat the ones used by the States parties, which were not always neutral expressions.
47. Mr. BANTON said that he endorsed the draft concluding observations prepared by Mr. Diaconu. In his own view, the situation of Black Algerians was satisfactorily covered by the phrase on the situation of the ethnic communities in the fourth line of paragraph 3. The group whose situation might be a source of concern was the Berbers and that point was dealt with adequately in paragraph 4.
48. He believed that the draft concluding observations faithfully reflected the Committee's discussion of Algeria. If the Committee adopted the recommendation made by the country rapporteurs after their meeting on 11 March (document without a symbol, in English), to the effect that the Centre for Human Rights should assign a member of its staff to draft the Committee's concluding observations, by August 1993 the Committee might be receiving draft conclusions of a quality comparable to those being considered by the other international treaty monitoring bodies.
49. Mr. DIACONU said that he had used the term "ethnic communities" - which was not taken from the report of Algeria - because it was widely accepted. He proposed that it should be replaced by the term "ethnic groups", which was used both in the Convention and in the report of Algeria. He did not think that there was any particular problem with Blacks in Algeria, but was prepared to mention them in the concluding observations if other members of the Committee wished him to do so. However, he did believe that the Committee should ask Algeria to provide additional information on the Berbers in its next report.
50. If the Committee decided to delete the references to the "spirit of openness and cooperation" and "dialogue" in paragraph 2 of the draft, it would have to do the same in its concluding observations on other countries.
51. Mr. WOLFRUM said that, although he had mentioned the conclusions of the Human Rights Committee, he had never meant to say that the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination should take them as a model.
52. As to Black people in Algeria, he noted that, when the representative of Algeria had been questioned on the subject of the Black minority, he had simply replied that it was a very small minority. The Committee could not accept such a reply. It could therefore request additional information concerning Black Algerians without overstepping its mandate.
53. Lastly, wording similar to that appearing in paragraph 2 was customarily used when a country resumed relations with the Committee after a break of several years, but that was not the case of Algeria.
54. Mr. LAMPTEY said that the question raised by Mr. Garvalov concerning the wording the Committee used in its concluding observations called for a response. In his view, the Committee did not have to limit itself to a single formula. It was perfectly free to repeat an expression used by the State party - such as national minorities or ethnic groups - as long as it referred to a situation covered in article 1, paragraph 1, of the Convention. Blacks were not an ethnic group, but a minority. If the Committee wished to mention them in its concluding observations, it should therefore mention the "Black minority" in paragraph 3, in addition to the "ethnic communities" - or "ethnic groups", if that term was chosen.
55. Mrs. SADIQ ALI said that she agreed with Mr. Lamptey's views on the Black minority. It was important to mention it in the concluding observations.
56. Mr. de GOUTTES said that he also believed the Committee should mention the Black minority in its concluding observations. He agreed with Mr. Diaconu that, in the fourth line of paragraph 3, it was better to speak of "ethnic groups", which was more in line with to the terminology used in the Convention. In paragraph 2, the Committee might state its concern. He proposed the following wording for that paragraph: "The Committee welcomes the spirit of cooperation that characterizes both the report and the dialogue with the representative of the Government, while expressing its concern about the difficulties of the present situation in Algeria".
57. Mr. SONG, replying to the question raised by Mr. Garvalov, said he agreed that it was not necessary to choose one particular formula. In its concluding observations, the Committee could repeat the terminology used by the State party.
58. Mr. GARVALOV said that there were two different possibilities. If the State party acknowledged the existence in its territory of ethnic groups, ethnic minorities, national minorities, etc., it would indeed be appropriate for the Committee to use the same terminology as the State party in its concluding observations. The second possibility nevertheless required some thought: if a State party did not acknowledge the existence of such groups or minorities, whereas everyone knew that they did exist - and that was not an academic theory, the case having arisen in the past with regard to his own country, Bulgaria - what should the Committee do? Should it agree with the State party's opinion? If not, what terminology should it use? That was an important question of principle, which the members of the Committee should think about in order to develop a common position.
59. Mr. LAMPTEY said that he understood Mr. Garvalov's point of view, but did not see what the problem was. In the second case, it would be enough for the Committee to include some of the questions raised by the members during the discussion of the country's report in its concluding observations, using the same wording as the members of the Committee.
60. Mr. YUTZIS said that a completely new phenomenon was beginning to appear: the link between religious conceptions and values, on the one hand, and linguistic, ethnic and cultural elements, on the other. It was therefore disturbing to note that Algerian legislation now contained provisions that seemed to legitimize a certain religious fundamentalism. Article 5 of the Act relating to political associations, mentioned in paragraph 74 of the report (CERD/C/209/Add.4), referred to "behaviour contrary to Islamic morals", and that was consistent with pressures for acceptance of a single religion as the basic standard of a society. He drew the attention of the Committee to that risk. Two years hence, the Committee must have no reason to regret not having foreseen such developments, if they came to pass. The entire question of prevention was at issue.
61. On another matter, paragraph 4 of the draft concluding observations did not appear to take sufficient account of the actual situation and he proposed that it should be replaced by the following text: "The Committee expresses its concern at the situation of the Berber population and believes that the next report should clarify the situation of the population of Berber origin, i.e. its position in Algerian society with regard to its identity, language, culture, participation in public life and the social benefits provided for in article 5 of the Convention".
62. Mr. SHAHI said he agreed with Mr. Garvalov that the Committee should harmonize its concluding observations: if it expressed opinions on the question of ethnicity in connection with the Algerian report, it would also have to do so in all similar cases it discussed. In any event, that question would be a source of difficulties for the Committee.
63. With regard to the draft concluding observations, he would prefer paragraph 3 to speak of ethnic groups rather than minorities, first of all, because the Convention spoke of "groups" and secondly, because the term "minorities" often had a political connotation.
64. As to the Islamic moral values referred to by Mr. Yutzis, he noted that the representative of the Algerian Government who had taken part in the Committee's work had been representing a secular Government, opposed to the Islamic fundamentalists, and had given the term "modern Islamic moral values" an entirely secular interpretation corresponding to the conceptions of that secular Government. The "moral values" referred to by the representative should not be identified with the "moral values" that a fundamentalist Government would impose if it came to power in Algeria.
65. It was obvious that, in many Muslim countries, the struggle was between the secularists and the fundamentalists. Unfortunately, in such countries, the term "secular" was associated with the term "atheist" and that misunderstanding immediately caused a hostile reaction on the part of the population to anything that was secular. In addition, the Governments of such countries were subjected to intense pressure from extremist religious groups and it was not impossible that the fundamentalists would one day come to power through the democratic system - by winning elections by universal suffrage -so that their opponents would have no other solution than to end the democratic system. That situation created countless difficulties and contradictions. He would therefore be in favour of a rather cautious approach that also remained faithful to the provisions of international instruments.
66. He would also like the concluding observations to contain only paragraphs 1, 2 and 3. However, if the other members of the Committee insisted that paragraph 4 should be included, he would not oppose it.
67. Mr. LAMPTEY said that he did not really understand Mr. Yutzis' point of view. He agreed with Mr. Shahi that the Algerian Government was secular and that, if there was a problem in Algeria, it was the result of the fact that the Government was determined to eliminate the Islamic fundamentalists. He also thought that, if there was a Berber minority in Algeria, the problems affecting it were not serious enough to warrant going beyond what Mr. Diaconu was proposing in paragraph 4 of his draft concluding observations.
68. Mr. DIACONU said he regretted that the Committee had become involved in a philosophical debate. If it wished to clear up the problem of the relationship between Islam and the Convention, it should devote a discussion to it, with Mr. Aboul Nasr present, and draw the appropriate conclusions. It was not right to debate that issue in connection with Algeria and not with other countries that had a majority of Muslims in their population.
69. He agreed with Mr. de Gouttes' proposal on paragraph 2. In paragraph 3, the words "the situation of ethnic communities" in the fourth line might be replaced by the words "the situation of ethnic and racial groups, including the Blacks".
70. With regard to paragraph 4, he could not accept the first part of Mr. Yutzis' proposal expressing the Committee's concern and hoped that Mr. Yutzis would agree to drop it, but the second part, referring to the social benefits provided for in article 5 of the Convention, was acceptable. He hoped that Mr. Yutzis would agree to that compromise text.
71. Mr. YUTZIS said that he disagreed with Mr. Diaconu. A "philosophical debate" was essential, for most of mankind's problems related to concepts and values and such a discussion was crucial.
72. Contrary to what Mr. Lamptey seemed to think, he himself had not linked the Berber issue to the issue of Islam, for they were two different things. The Berber problem was that of a minority whose living conditions were not reflected in the report. For lack of information on that point, the Committee should let the State party know about its concern for that vulnerable group, which was perhaps one of the most vulnerable in Algeria. As to Islam, the Committee should express its concern not only because of the current situation in Algeria, but also with a view to prevention, so as not to have to blame itself later for having done nothing while there had still been time. It could not be denied that the very serious mixture of ethnic and national interests, on the one hand, and religious values, on the other, gave rise to many of the conflicts in modern-day society. Therefore since the report of Algeria mentioned the fact that behaviour contrary to Islam was prohibited, the Committee had a duty to react.